Decoding Trends: Amy Daroukakis & Chloé de Ruffray on cultural strategy and trend forecasting

What's the next big thing? And how to prepare for it? In this episode, cultural strategists & trend forecasters Amy Daroukakis and Chloé de Ruffray provide a fascinating glimpse into their world of cultural strategy and trend forecasting. With over 15 years of experience, Amy's expertise spans many different industries from, collaborating with renowned brands like LVMH and Google. Chloé, armed with a background in social and political sciences, has been a driving force in trend forecasting and cultural ethnography. She  has been working globally with various clients in the beauty, luxury and lifestyle sector. 

Together, they discuss the nuances of their profession, highlighting the importance of balance and flexibility in navigating cultural shifts and consulting clients. They delve into the role of trend forecasters in shaping business strategies, emphasising the need to be a good and sensitive listener to be able to provide actionable guidelines in an ever-changing professional and cultural landscape.

Fore more information please visit cultureshifts.net and follow us on Instagram & LinkedIn.

Transcript

Moritz (00:01.894)
Welcome back to a new episode of our Culture Shifts magazine podcast. Today, I'm happy to host two remarkable guests that work in the field of cultural and future strategy. Amy Daroukakis and Chloé de Ruffray. First let's meet Amy Daroukakis, a seasoned trend cultural strategist who's been igniting innovation across the globe for over 15 years.

On her website it says, from culture to curry to cars. Amy's expertise knows no bounds, having collaborated with iconic brands such as El Viamache, Airbnb, and Google. And then next we have Chloé Des Rufrets, a creative and cultural strategist with a passion for trend research and innovation. With a background in social and political sciences from Humboldt University, Berlin.

With a background in social and political science from Humboldt University Berlin, Chloé has been at the forefront of trend forecasting since her experience at renowned trend agency, Carlin Creative. Hi Amy, hi Chloé, how are you doing?

Amy (01:21.854)
Very well, thank you. We're gonna hire you to do our PR from now on. Are you up for the job?

Chloé (01:21.89)
Hi, Moritz. Very well. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Moritz (01:28.706)
I mean, these podcasts are always some kind of PR, so I'm happy to talk about this after that recording. Thank you so much for joining. Let me ask you, for me as someone who's doing a podcast for you as trend forecasters, would you say podcasts are still a thing, Chloe?

Amy (01:34.556)
Hehehehe

Chloé (01:36.523)
But thank you for having us, Moritz. It's a pleasure.

Amy (01:38.698)
Thank you.

Chloé (01:49.31)
Oh yes, absolutely, why not? I mean, like, of course, you know, we live in an era of videos and short videos, but I think people love listening to podcasts while doing something else, and also people love to listen to longer formats and also to have some time off from the screen. So, at least for me, it's still a thing. I don't know about you, Amy, but.

Amy (02:14.054)
Yeah, no, I would say definitely. And I think as we continue to get in a very oversaturated AI, enabled text-based, a human voice, a human voice with nuance is really going to continue to stand out. And actually, there's proven metrics that there is room. It's not an oversaturated space. And I think, again, it's much more enjoyable. There's a realness that comes through in a voice

text.

Moritz (02:45.722)
So thank you so much. So we continue now. This was just like the first.

Amy (02:48.039)
haha

Moritz (02:50.498)
Talking about trend forecasting, it's something that is very present for a while now, but I have the sense that there's a bit more happening right now in terms of trend forecast. It's more active trend forecasters that seem to be more present. And I don't know if it's just in my bubble, but how do you become a trend forecaster and how do you start working in that field, Amy?

Chloé (02:50.51)
Thanks for watching!

Amy (03:16.067)
Okay.

Well, I would say it definitely has become more trending. You know, there's, it goes through iterations, you know, and it's, it's hit a moment, I think, just because we're in a point of, of influx and confusion because of, I would say TikTok has driven a lot of what is a trend. Um, but the pathway backward is not, it's not a straight line. Um, you have to be willing to, there's, it's, it's a niche industry and, you know, we have to be transparent.

about that. It needs to be much more open than it is because we tend to focus more on Global North and Global South. So in terms of there is there is space for other voices that look beyond us but to get in I did a lot of internships with futurists like you know the classics of Faith Popcorn and Lietta Court, these emotive women, these powerful women that would stand in rooms and have built careers that have lasted decades. And then I got a job with the

where I traveled the world looking for interesting products and would be in secret rooms with CEOs for Target, which was a US retailer. So you have to be active in your own career to define your own path because there isn't that many trend roles. You almost have to, you know, Chloe and I talk a lot about manifesting what we want next. We have a really great relationship. And so you almost have to sometimes like project

what you want in order to kind of put out in the world. If that makes sense.

Moritz (04:52.434)
Absolutely, it makes sense. And then also you mentioned, thank you so much, that you and Chloe talk a lot about this So this is another fantastic thing that I brought to like that we are here together in a constellation With two of you working together already and being in exchange Chloe, how does that work? You probably are also always in different places all around the world. How does work like that work for you?

Chloé (05:21.722)
So one thing that I wanted to add to what Amy just said is that I'm not sure that, you know, it's definitely not a classical path and I think that you have to, you really have to choose to become a trend forecaster. It's almost like you don't have any other options. If you cross, you know, like path with this field.

it means something. I mean for me there was no other option than doing this job, you know, like from a very young age when I started back in 2012. So I think it's important, like all the people we know in our field are passionate, obsessed, very curious, humble as well, because you have to, you have to admit that you made some mistakes that you didn't

maybe you didn't rely enough on data or even metrics or your intuition. So yeah, I think it's not only like a professional path, but also like a very human experience, you know, that makes you, that changes you as a person, I believe. And regarding your questions, well...

Chloé (06:39.478)
It's interesting, you know, it's interesting to be in different places, to meet different people, but the more I grow into this field and into this world, the more I also seek some moments of solitude and quietness so I can really put my brain on off and really think, you know, instead of just being always on the go. And I thought that as a trend forecaster, you needed to be there where it's

almost 12 years in this field, I feel that we also need some time alone. So yes, I'm still traveling. Amy and I were in Dubai together three months ago, no, four months ago, I think, for the Dubai Future Farm, which was an amazing experience. But apart from that, yes, I think it's important to also find a balance and not always be active, but also be like...

in stillness, somehow.

Amy (07:39.37)
So Chloe is my role model because I haven't got there yet. I know that space is required because that's where those moments of clarity come.

Chloé (07:41.695)
No.

Moritz (07:49.228)
Yeah.

Moritz (07:52.762)
Yeah.

Amy (07:52.766)
But I don't have a very good brain balance. Because in order to do this work, you have to always look. You're always looking. And you don't just look, you question everything. The poster, the conversation on the bus, you eavesdrop. You're a little bit of an outsider. You're an observer of a lot of things. Why is somebody buying that? You look at what everyone purchases,

not purchasing. You read anything you can get your hands on. It's just we are innately curious as Chloe said that is one of our core skill sets and so that always on I need to work on the break part. Chloe's got that much better.

Moritz (08:40.031)
Yeah, no, I totally understand that.

Yeah, no, but exactly that always on mode is something that I can also relate to, to be a bit more, maybe not just always sensitive, but also because people try to also think, are you so critical because you comment or you see everything. But then on the other hand, I think these signals that you've been talking about, you need them to then maybe create these packages for, I don't know, your clients, the people you work with, the people you consult to then

Amy (08:49.987)
Mmm, you're sure.

Moritz (09:12.728)
get into the to find the results and my question would be do you always see the result immediately or is it a long process I mean how if you see the evolving landscape of work how do you use it for your business or also your individual encounter

Amy (09:33.558)
Chloe, you wanna go first?

Chloé (09:35.734)
Yeah, sure. So you mean like how like the work environment in general, how like it's evolving or?

Moritz (09:45.034)
Exactly. The work environment and also how with these massive amount of signals and things that are there and let's say also trends that you see, how do you limit yourself and how then you use it?

Chloé (10:00.958)
Well, there's a moment where you have to say stop, where enough is enough. And in terms of signals, no, usually, when you spot a signal, it's very tiny. It's almost invisible to everyone. I always say, I think that some people working this field have kind of a sixth sense and they kind of.

kind of, you know, spot the things that are invisible because we know how to, you know, there's a difference between looking and, or seeing and watching. I think it's this different in English. But no, it takes some time until you see.

the thing happening. And usually what happens also is that we are already into the next thing. So sometimes, I don't know how you feel, Amy, but I feel that we live in another reality somehow, which is always interesting.

to observe, like how do you stay connected when you have, like in the present moment when you have always like a foot in the future and sometimes also in the past you know so we are very, we have very flexible bodies let's say we're able to really stretch a lot but

Yeah, I mean like the work it's no it takes time. It takes time because usually we also work like at least at least two years in advance so we know that what we are doing now won't have we won't see any concrete results before a very long time so we have to be patient as well.

Moritz (11:34.437)
Yeah.

Amy (11:50.822)
For me, I say that I've, as a title, I say cultural strategy, now over trend forecasting. And it's part of my toolkit in which I can do trends and I can do futures work. So, or inclusive innovation, it depends on what that client. And I would say our core skill set and way of looking hasn't shifted, but the end result is just the client. There's a lot more pressure. There's a lot more at stake when you get it wrong. And when you dabble in,

Moritz (11:56.474)
Yeah.

Amy (12:20.376)
companies lose millions, millions when they pick the wrong entry point to enter within culture, to take from culture. And so I'd say the thing that has evolved over time through skill set too is I always used to position myself as a researcher, but now it's really about the so what. So it depends if I'm working with a client that say is an FMCG, you know,

product that needs to go on the shelf. They don't want, they need, they need like under a year. But then I'm working on something right now where we're planning for 2050. So there's different lengths and that's where us remaining always on means that we can enter any type of project. And when we say anything, I mean between Chloe and myself, we've worked on like

Moritz (12:52.626)
Mm-hmm.

Moritz (13:01.573)
Yeah.

Amy (13:21.599)
on what is the future of true crime.

you know, what is the future of love and finance? And then how does that work for a commissioning team to figure out what does that television program look like in the future? But then it could be with a tech company on what is the cultural psych-ice of AI. So we have to remain nimble. The so what has become so much more important in that there's so much, we're surrounded by so much information with a lot of fear, a lot of fear around making a decision and an opinion that we're

brought in to help with an opinion. And those signals are layers of support to help with that. To say, we're seeing it from here, we're also seeing it from a global level, we're seeing it local, we're seeing it within your own organization, because we trend to talk to key stakeholders to say your team already feels this is important. So it doesn't just become the weighted piece of us, because I think we have stayed in this game long enough

as partners over oracles. Busy for a long time and there still is the oracles. There's still the like, here is my book, here is my, you know, follow my methodology, but I prefer to be the hidden resource, the secret thing I can never talk about. Chloe, do you like... are we stage people? Do you want to...

Moritz (14:31.057)
Yeah.

Chloé (14:49.631)
I always say that, you know, we're also here to amplify things, whether it is a trend or movement that we believe in or a brand that we believe in. So I guess, yeah, maybe one day we'll be on the stage, but, you know, you never know. But for now, I also feel that I like this position of being, you know, like a whisperer.

Moritz (14:53.65)
Mm-hmm.

Chloé (15:14.474)
you know, being behind the scene and amplifying people's work through knowledge and culture and you know and this beautiful German word that's, I don't know, maybe you have a translation for that, but the zeitgeist, you know, like how would you translate it? It's the word. Yeah.

Moritz (15:34.628)
I knew that they would say sidecap because it's the word, you know, like you use it also in English, you use it in every language I guess.

Amy (15:39.094)
That's the word. Yeah, it's a great word.

Chloé (15:43.038)
It's a great word, but there is no translation even in French, you know, there is no...

Moritz (15:49.402)
But regarding the zeitgeist, how, because Amy and Chloe, thank you so much for the insights. It's so interesting to think about work that you do now and that you will relieve maybe the results in 20 years or if it's two or 20. But that's strange, not like in a way of how can you define a zeitgeist for the next 20 years? I know that also like in manufacturing or designing in general, you work on things that will be,

Chloé (16:02.711)
Mm.

Amy (16:03.582)
Yeah.

Moritz (16:19.246)
that will be available in five years, if you look at car design or in general, something like that. It takes so much time. How often does it happen that then something that you, or maybe not just you too, but in general, like forecasters or cultural strategists worked on, and then you realize, oh wait, it doesn't work out in the time we live now.

Amy (16:46.179)
The pandemic?

Moritz (16:48.56)
Yes.

Amy (16:50.326)
I could speak to that in that I was working on a future of travel report with an incubator lab for a big finance company, and it was to be published the day that everything shut down. And it was all around over tourism and the fact that we just were at breaking point when it came to airports, when it came to countries, and we literally took the report and put it in a drawer. I never saw the light of day.

Chloé (17:17.021)
Mm.

Amy (17:20.761)
And it was going to be one of their key thought leadership pieces for the next year. And it just was completely...

I mean, this was a very outlier event, but it was a great reckoning for a lot of us when it comes to. But on the same side, I would say that there were trend agencies and just people that work within our field that it was the busiest time they've ever had. Because when you work within Forecast, for instance, there was a company that worked within like Hand Sanitizer and all of these kinds of things.

They had been planning for this for years. They had done future forecasting in preparation for what would come. And that's where, dependent on your industry, future forecasting and scenario planning and thinking about all of these anticipation and going, it could be a name your own adventure. It could be left, it could be right, it could be backwards, it could be forwards is really important. And that's why I think we bring forward like that nimble skill to go, here's possibility.

what those possibilities are.

Moritz (18:32.005)
Yeah.

Amy (18:32.134)
And so for those brands that went, here's all the possibilities. You mean here's a direct correlation. So that those hand sanitizer type brands, they could, they were, had the pipeline ready to manufacture the next day because they had planned for this to happen. Look at how so many companies went. We're going to live completely differently every, and then they've then spent the last two years literally getting rid of their teams because they

this one future that didn't actually happen. For many, the future of work, that's a whole other conversation. But anticipation, I think, is really important with this role.

Moritz (19:03.962)
Yeah.

Moritz (19:16.186)
Yeah.

Amy (19:17.542)
And it's a skill anybody could learn. It could be, but you have to be, this is the tricky part when we say about, you know, clients have changed. And Chloe, you can tell me if this feels correct too. There's not as many people invested in the future of a brand because people haven't necessarily felt like their careers have been invested by the company themselves.

So they're not in the long run. Automotive, the same people tend to be within those roles, because they tend to be in towns that only offer that role, say like Wolfsburg, when it comes to Volkswagen, right? That is an industry town. The employees will be there. They are invested in the future of whatever that product is versus a fast moving good. They're out in two years. So it also has to do with figuring out that we're as much psychologists, client psychologists, to go like, what's your appetite for futures?

Moritz (19:50.604)
Yeah.

Amy (20:09.316)
How invested are you because two to three years post somebody's role, who gets the glory? The next person. Or they scrap it and another person goes, this is what I think. So there's as much human psychology as it is about the signals.

Moritz (20:17.455)
Yeah.

Moritz (20:29.13)
yeah so yeah chloe

Chloé (20:31.307)
Yes.

Just wanted to add one little thing to what you said, Amy. Like you talked about anticipation and yes, I absolutely agree. This is something you can learn. And this is something that brands and people working for those brands should have or master. But beyond that, I think that openness and flexibility, you know, it's not, there is no one future. There are many futures and it doesn't mean that one will happen while...

Sorry, doesn't mean that one will happen exactly this way, but at least being open to the possibilities and being able to change, like this agility that we're all talking about. It's not a myth, it's not a theory, it's real. Like if you look at our lives.

you know, like maybe where we were like last year or three years ago, it's not, I mean, like we were open to different options, right? I guess. Uh, and if you are only, if you have like this narrow minded approach to anything in life, then well, you, I don't think it's leading anywhere. Um, so yes, anticipation for sure, flexibility and agility as well. Uh, and, and.

you know, being open to change because change is the only thing that we're sure about. So having this mindset of, well, things can change and it doesn't mean anything about us as a brand.

Moritz (21:59.176)
Yeah, exactly.

Chloé (22:08.382)
It doesn't mean anything about us as an entity, as a group, whatever. It's just the way it is. And embracing it just as it is, I think it's very valuable. Yeah, so human psychology and maybe also like, you know, company psychology, in a sense.

Moritz (22:26.934)
Exactly, exactly. I think in terms of like what you what you just said also regarding anticipation and the difference between maybe forecasting a trend and making a cultural strategy because culture is always there and it shapes and it changes as you as you said Chloe

there is these two different possibilities of reacting, I think, and acting. So if you, Amy, you just gave the example of maybe COVID and the hand sanitizer or the travel industry, or how do you prepare brands or companies now, or even governments or NGOs, I guess you work with them as well.

Chloé (22:52.054)
Mm-hmm.

Moritz (23:05.898)
How do you, like what do you prefer doing? Do you prefer in acting and developing ideas for a cultural strategy or a future trend that is not yet defined? Or do you like to react on a client's need and try to solve a problem because they already addressed it but

Amy (23:35.614)
We might have two different opinions. Chloe, what's your favorite of the mix?

Chloé (23:40.558)
I think it activates two different parts in the brain. So I like both. You know, being active means that you will have a more maybe daring and creative approach. You will allow yourself to think and to write things that maybe you won't allow yourself to do when you are reacting. Because when you're reacting, it's tangible. There is something very concrete and you need to be fast and you need to be strategic.

And you need to be very pragmatic. So I don't think I have a preferred approach, because again, it's a very different request. So being reactive means that you're going to help. So maybe it's more...

Moritz (24:25.906)
Mm-hmm.

Chloé (24:32.262)
you know, rewarding in a sense, because you see the results or you feel the results right away and the client, you know, feels relieved in a sense. Whereas with the active part, you are, yeah, I don't know, it's like a dance, you know, like you both like dancing and you just...

trying to imagine things that don't exist yet and it's also nice so no I don't want to choose

Amy (25:02.454)
That's it.

Moritz (25:02.805)
Okay, fantastic.

Amy (25:04.434)
Fair. I would say one of my favorite projects I ever did was there was so much research. I mean, I had, you know, like that became the appendix. It's when you get in front of a CDO, it goes down to 10 slides. And in this particular case, they took those 10 slides of these are the 10 things if you were to just take for across three different markets, the most important things, and they put them in their five year strategy. They went, that

they built it right in. And that was incredibly rewarding because I start every conversation with a new client saying, if...

If our relationship, if the entire time together becomes a PDF that lives in a folder that you never look at, it's not the type of work that I like to do, nor do I think would I consider this a successful project. So if you never refer to it, if you don't feel invested in it, if your voice is not part of it, I don't want to do this type of work. So that's helped. That's taken years to get clearer as to saying it has to be actionable.

Moritz (26:05.682)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (26:13.328)
noise if we can kind of silence out a lot and also sometimes we become trans translators because somebody will there's because of the influence of social media and I saw something once that I really loved it was talking about like books or protein and social media sometimes can be sugar so we have to balance to tell clients to say if you're gonna invest in say a five-year strategy or it's something that's gonna completely pivot your business

Moritz (26:20.795)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (26:41.734)
Here's some of the protein that is going to remain.

Moritz (26:45.455)
Yeah.

Amy (26:45.63)
But a lot of people in our industry, and this isn't an awk, this is just, this is where you see core. You'll see this now. Core is added to Goblin Core, Cottage Core. There's a lot of made up words to try and encompass. And actually, I have a really good friend who's a social listener, and so she, that's her tool set, and she listens. And she will kick the tires on so many of these trends that, you know, a magazine will

this is the new Grammar Core.

Chloé (27:19.036)
Mm.

Amy (27:19.542)
And it's very light touch. If somebody has said this is the thing, but I would rather work on the protein type projects to go. You know, for instance, I was just at this Futurist Conference, and one of the key elements that really struck me was there was really a point of view and a voice for nature in the room that was like, what would if we back cast with this amazing, amazing exercise,

Moritz (27:22.524)
Yeah.

Chloé (27:29.061)
Mm.

Amy (27:49.336)
plants, a voice, and a currency. How would the world look different? Like what would have changed? And so starting to kind of get more playful with what futures could look like but beyond just human perspective because that's not actually worked. So that's the stuff where my brain goes. Oh my goodness.

Moritz (27:51.506)
Mm-hmm.

Moritz (28:07.41)
Okay. Thank you so much.

Chloé (28:12.648)
I love this.

protein metaphor and you know, the saying that we have to focus on research. One thing that I discovered for myself and I really believe that this is also a great tool for cultural strategy and trend forecast is ethnographic work. So you are on behalf of a client, on behalf of a brand, you are not doing the research, you are creating.

the research because you are, you know, you're on the ground meeting people, spending time with them. And I've been doing this now for almost two years. And I really feel the difference because you get to have the insights like firsthand, you know, by spending time with those.

um you know what people call early adopters so instead of reading about them or you know like grabbing their quotes in an article you have like a more investigative approach where you are actually spending time on the ground and for example like my last project was we spent half a day with like

I think in Paris it was like 15 people, so half a day in Paris. So it was like also very interesting, you know, to go around the city with them and talk about life and how they see society evolving and etc. And this is so valuable for brands, especially if they never had the chance to go to or to spend time in the countries. And Amy, you talked about the PDF, which is like a big topic.

Moritz (29:48.419)
Yeah.

Chloé (29:56.742)
One thing that I also really believe is that in the future of our work is like other formats and for this for the specific project we had to produce some clips so kind of reels type of things that will be delivered to the client and so this is fascinating you know to see like you know

Moritz (30:10.203)
Yeah.

Chloé (30:19.154)
like those clips that are encapsulating the trends that we are talking about with real people talking about you know like an unfiltered way because this is also one of the things that I really love about field is that it's not edited you know they just say something and maybe they don't even know how powerful it is what they just said and then you just you just

Moritz (30:36.877)
Yeah, exactly.

Moritz (30:44.626)
Yeah. No, absolutely. It's a very sociological work also, like you do field studies, you go around, you listen to people. I think that also I like this social listener thing, because I think we should all be social listeners. We should not just be social talkers or we should also be social listeners. Just one question, Chloe, because you mentioned that project, I just...

Amy (30:49.799)
Yeah.

Chloé (30:51.319)
Yes.

Chloé (30:57.414)
Yeah, it's a challenge.

Amy (31:00.499)
Yeah.

Chloé (31:02.412)
Mmm.

Moritz (31:08.926)
saw on your website the projects that you've been working on recently. I hope you tell me if you can disclose it, but there was this field study and of the question of, I think it was for some perfume company or something like that. Could you give me an insight or like just an example? What did you do there or what was the question and the research you did?

Chloé (31:33.902)
Do you have something specific in mind? Because I am doing quite a lot of projects in the perfume and beauty field.

Moritz (31:39.278)
No, no, I just read... There was this thing about the question, the future question of What does it mean to be a man in the future?

Chloé (31:52.446)
Oh yes, those are my favorite topics. I think in another life, I mean maybe this is also the reason why I love ethnographic work so much because I always wanted to be a journalist, but then I found, or trend forecasting found me and then I had to answer the call. But yeah, it's a very, it seems to be like a very superficial question, but it's actually very deep, what it means to be a man.

what does masculinity mean in a world that kind of label what masculinity is slash should be. So for that specific project, yes, they wanted to know.

like in regard of everything that was happening, you know, the Me Too era or post Me Too era or new feminism era, like how do you see yourself as a man and how do you place yourself in society? And so basically for that project, this is what I love about

working also with French clients is that they have, they really want to have this, I would call it like intellectual approach. So instead of having a very concrete question to answer, they allow themselves to just broaden the spectrum and ask almost, you know, philosophical questions. What is masculinity? And so then you get the opportunity to really dive deep and talk to experts, talk to people.

Moritz (33:19.717)
Yeah.

Chloé (33:27.628)
And then the final result, which is often like a presentation, will help them to craft more meaningful maybe campaigns, communication campaigns, products, but also services, you know, tone of voice. So it's always interesting to see how one single question can actually...

impact different departments inside of a company, especially when those companies are big.

Moritz (33:56.742)
Yeah, thank you. Fantastic. No, but you mentioned that. Thank you so much. You mentioned also, for example, French clients. That brings me to my next question. And I just also know it because I work in between Italy and Germany. And I also feel the differences between Italian clients and Italian culture and mentality and German culture, mentality and also maybe focus interest.

Amy (34:10.614)
Thanks for watching!

Moritz (34:21.126)
You both have international background, you lived and live in different places. How do you and also work in different languages with different clients? How does that affect your work, your efficiency, your creativity? Maybe a question for you first, Amy.

Amy (34:42.875)
I mean, that's the...

joy, like that's the, and the pain. It depends on the market. I will start with you have to, first of all, sometimes there's a bit of skepticism. Some, you know, as to like, can you understand our culture? And my favorite one I always use specifically with German clients, my husband works with one of the largest cruise ship companies within Germany. As I say, I've been on a cruise ship with 3000 Germans. I know Germans better than you

Chloé (35:01.963)
Mm.

Amy (35:15.244)
Because it's a microcosm. So sometimes you first have to set the stage to say, my accent does not determine in which I look into your market. And actually sometimes the outside foot is the good foot. And then I will find the key partner, because I think also cultural nuance is important. But I float between the UK, Berlin, so Germany, and Athens. So there's like this mix.

Moritz (35:15.454)
You probably know Germans better than I do.

Moritz (35:30.482)
exactly.

Amy (35:44.364)
that I'm Canadian, but I lived in New York for 10 years. So I can read the room and how an American client wants to be briefed versus the unsaid spoken things that happen with the UK.

to a bit more firmness, I'd say, with the German client, and then the complete insanity that is potentially a Greek client. It's just, it's a different, it's a completely very different world of, and they would agree. I have a Greek last name, I could say that. So we have to remain nimble in how you present, how you bring clients on the journey, because they're all very, very different.

Amy (36:29.392)
I was in the room for a German client working with the US agency and I saw how important very clear understandable language is and when you start to bring nuance in and someone has to then stop to understand what that word is you've lost them and I saw that because they were using these very American

Amy (36:59.752)
looking at each other around the table going like what does that mean and they lost them so being every man language is important you don't have to try and be smarter than somebody else I think those are the worst kinds of strategists and there are two there's somebody that tries to make somebody smart or tries to be smarter than someone else I'll tell you which one has a longer career you know

Moritz (37:20.13)
Yeah.

Moritz (37:24.614)
Fantastic.

Amy (37:25.918)
But I would also just say the mix keeps it interesting. The mix is what I think will hopefully help with dementia later on in life. Because you have to be adaptable. You have to be willing to push past. And the last thing I'll say is I use my Canadian-ness as a superpower because I will address very uncomfortable conversations with a bit of humor and otherness.

Moritz (37:31.131)
Yes.

Chloé (37:35.158)
Thank you.

Moritz (37:54.63)
Yeah.

Amy (37:55.832)
to a UK cultural institution, you know your hoarders of culture, right? And they were like, oh. But I used humor and my otherness to talk about something we needed to talk about. They're gonna build a new museum. They've first been a gatekeeping culture for a very long time.

Chloé (38:05.026)
Hehehe

Amy (38:17.786)
So we need to be honest with ourselves. But they weren't knowing a lot of people within that culture. There would have been a reserve, there's a revered, there's a society, there's class layers. So we should use the fact that our otherness is actually a way in sometimes in our hard conversations.

Moritz (38:27.929)
Yeah, yeah.

Moritz (38:39.778)
Yeah, thank you so much. Chloe...

we talked about the different countries and the different languages and also different clients that are in different markets. We met on social media, so we met via LinkedIn, all of us, and we created that kind of network or maybe bond or exchange. I would be interested now, how important is the social network, professional network, the maybe conferences and forums that are happening all over the world,

thought leadership for you in your work, in your collaborations and also in the development of your visibility, let's say.

Chloé (39:23.526)
That's a great question, Moritz. Yes, I mean, I would be lying if I would tell you, no, it's not important and I'm a self-made woman because it doesn't exist, right? It's a nonsense. Yes, and I guess it's always like the intention matters, you know, if you are doing this just to build your social network, if you write posts, if you publish posts just because you want to have this dopamine.

Amy (39:24.926)
Great question.

Chloé (39:53.66)
kick or you want to be seen or whatever, well it's not going to lead you anywhere. So the intention is important, the way you do things and the way you write and the way you connect to others and for me it was like a very intentional decision I think like three years ago when I started to feel

that I wanted to be more vocal on certain things and I wanted also to meet other people because as Amy said in the beginning, it's a very niche industry. And I felt that I had the need to connect to other trends slash cultural strategists all over the world and not only where I was back then in Portugal.

But you know, it's at the end of the day, it's quality that matters more than quantity. So at least it's my approach. So I carefully choose the conferences I'm going to, I carefully choose the people I wanna be around because again, I have, I'm quite strict with what I let in. And I think Amy, what you described in the beginning is a strength, you know, this ability to just.

take everything and not feeling overwhelmed, at least in theory. So yeah, and it's so powerful, you know, like to see that, I mean, we all know that opportunities come through people, right? And I would say that

Amy (41:13.042)
Well...

Chloé (41:34.03)
85% of the opportunities that I had in the past year came through LinkedIn because I was you know recommended or because you know and I think this is so powerful because I never thought you know you always read this but you never think this could be possible for you as well in a sense if that makes sense.

Moritz (41:40.92)
Yeah.

Moritz (41:57.346)
Yeah, absolutely.

Chloé (41:58.582)
because you think that, well, we're still, I mean, we're millennials, you know, so we don't have, we still have this very classical, vertical approach to, oh, you have to climb the ladder. You have to know the people in the right apartments, in the right companies.

Yes, but also this horizontal network that we're all building right now all over the world is so valuable. And I think one of my favorite game on LinkedIn is to recommend people, you know, like I see something and I'm like, okay. And this is really like for me, it's like, it's so much fun to do this, you know, and

Moritz (42:28.589)
Yeah.

Amy (42:30.07)
She's great with it.

Moritz (42:37.646)
Absolutely, I think you I remember also you recommended me as well So this is also something that is fantastic to have a network and to see also What you said also Amy that you have always like your maybe your collaborators somewhere for different markets for different Expertises because obviously even if you're very Maybe generalized also in your knowledge and in your ideas You can never have the ability to know everything and oversee everything So that's fantastic to know who to call

Amy (42:42.343)
Oh, she's great with it.

Chloé (43:04.664)
Yes.

Moritz (43:07.73)
for Tokyo or for Munich or for Los Angeles.

Amy (43:13.422)
And we're not always the right person. And that's the g- that's the- we're really not. So it's better to, you know, the more- the- the more you-

Chloé (43:15.958)
Yeah, awesome.

Amy (43:23.062)
pass on to someone else. Being the connector is such an undervalued skill. And because it you have to you think you know, you think of as the collective. So we've all met, as you mentioned on LinkedIn, that that's been a core place. I'll just say for myself and Chloe's we both been on this journey together and supporting each other is that we do secret

Amy (43:53.096)
Sometimes I'll get a client and goes, oh, can you show us some examples? I was like, if you're abs, you know, would you want me to show the work that I do for you? And that just stops it right there. You know, they stop asking. I say, would you want me to not adhere to your NDAs? And then they kind of stop that thing. But the transformational change, I would say for both our lives, you can agree or disagree, but I think you might agree,

Moritz (44:01.238)
Yeah.

Amy (44:23.296)
leaned into our own voice and our own curiosity and we started to exhibit it and we got playful. I know Chloe's voice. I know what she likes. I see her tone. I see, you know, all the all the pieces of her have kind of really blossomed within this one platform but she brings more than just her business self. She brings her whole self and I would say that's also been the transformational changes I do the same in that I'm playful with

Moritz (44:51.728)
Yeah.

Amy (44:52.996)
what I share. It's the things I'm curious about. If someone else is curious, great. You learn quickly to not value your self-worth based on the like because algorithms have so much they're so out of your control as to what is seen and the things that get like amplified are sometimes so surprising versus the ones you spend a lot of time and effort into writing. But

Chloé (45:13.326)
Thanks for watching!

Chloé (45:16.91)
true.

Moritz (45:17.827)
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Amy (45:19.934)
Because we're also independents, I've always weirdly thought of LinkedIn as my office. So I actively have made friends. My network is one of my most valuable resources from an economic standpoint, but from an emotional standpoint. They're both really core principles. So I invest a lot of time. And so when I get a lot of requests for mentoring,

Moritz (45:26.693)
Yeah.

Moritz (45:44.783)
Yeah.

Amy (45:49.908)
starting to think about this, I go here is the paid labor I do as a freelancer, and here is the unpaid labor I do as a freelancer. This is the reality. You know, there's a lot of unpaid labor in terms of sharing your thinking, connecting people. That's not all economically rewarded, but it is rewarded.

Moritz (46:11.184)
Yeah.

Chloé (46:13.026)
on the long run.

Amy (46:14.342)
On the long run, and I will say transformationally, the thing is you see this is the iceberg principle. If you've been doing this for a few years, you'll see the engagement of the reaction or all of those pieces. But there's a surface level of so many people that do not engage with anything you've ever written. And over time, and I know Chloe's gotten these messages too, I really like what you've been writing.

and they've never once been like engaged at all. So you don't know who's seeing what you see. You never know.

Moritz (46:47.834)
Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's about like, it's about also, like, as far as I see it, not just from the both of you, but also other people I follow, I see it's like, it's sharing the signals that you maybe see also, when you go around when you work when you when you are the seismographic

Chloé (46:52.31)
You never know.

Moritz (47:10.802)
listener or whatever if you're going around and I would have like Another question maybe because we're coming to the end of this podcast Absolutely

Chloé (47:19.722)
May I just add something on what Amy just said very quickly, because yes, it's important to value and to highlight, you know, this network that we are building and having those collaborators everywhere. But if I had one thing to share with anyone who is looking to maybe grow into their business is to also invest time, energy, and money into people who have more junior levels.

So you know, don't hesitate to collaborate with someone who is reaching out because they offer their help and you are in the stage of your career where you feel that you can go to the next level and you want to focus more on strategy or you want to focus more on the, you know, spending time on with clients or whatever. And yes, we are independent consultant, but I think that both Emy and I have also this

agency type of mindset without being an agency, you know, and I've been working with this incredible woman for over a year now, she's 26, and it has been so rewarding, humanly, but also like, you know, economically, professionally, to just have someone on my side.

and being able to grow faster and to take more projects. So yes, I think it's, and even for her, I believe that it's also like great to, yeah, it's a kind of win-win situation. So when we talk about network and thought leadership, I feel that this is one of the steps that we should take into consideration as well if we're looking to grow as a business or as a person or as a consultant.

Amy (49:10.834)
I love that. Can I say one more thing about this is, I don't care what industry you're in, I mean this is across the board. You can spot the difference between need working versus networking.

Moritz (49:11.302)
Thank you so much, Chloe.

Moritz (49:26.488)
Yeah.

Chloé (49:26.983)
Hmm

Amy (49:27.79)
Networking is a long-term game. It's saying I'm invested in a career. It's continuous. It's not in shirts prints. You realize you're running a marathon. And so there's always a connection. You're always willing to speak to someone. And the person that you mentor, as Chloe has said, they then become the decision maker later. Like I've seen people rise into roles where if you help them with the foundational principles

as much. You know, there's been so much learning, it's shared. But don't be a need worker, because that doesn't grow a community, that doesn't grow a network. And you can tell it in a message, I've just finished a project where I'll get, people will send me their CVs, but with no context, just like, you know, like, you just, yeah, that's what it is. Exactly. And it feels so transactional.

Moritz (50:19.874)
Here, eat it. Look at it. Give me something.

Chloé (50:21.386)
Hehehehe

Amy (50:26.804)
And, you know, I wrote a post once that made me very, very uncomfortable to write, but it was an important one when it said that nine out of the ten, eight of the ten people that I mentor don't say thank you.

Moritz (50:27.227)
Mm-hmm.

Moritz (50:39.783)
Hmm.

Amy (50:40.062)
And you know, they'll say thank you at the end of the call, but there won't be the follow-up. And the thing that I started to notice is actually it was those two's that the two of them would rise because you they would come back. There's an open door now. They they would send something or I would send something and it became more they became part of a community versus a transactional. I've come here for knowledge and after every call I'll get the oh wow your energy is so great. Well that

Amy (51:09.896)
we said. So need working versus networking I think is a core thing to remember.

Chloé (51:15.731)
Love that.

Moritz (51:17.458)
Thank you so much. And this, this brings me also to my big thank you for you to having, being part of this podcast today. Just one last question, just to, to spice it up or to round it up. We started with, is podcast still a thing? Like a trend forecast. You said, yes, I'm very happy about this.

Chloé (51:27.158)
Thank you.

Moritz (51:38.626)
I wanted to know is it even possible to predict trends in a rapidly changing world you were mentioning Amy there's tik-tok there's social media Literally everyone can be a trendsetter today. So with everyone being a trendsetter also At the same time no one becomes a trendsetter

my point of view. So what I would like to know from you very briefly, what is maybe not a big trend, what is like a trend or like a forecast or even a cultural phenomena you really like to address and you haven't done it yet.

Amy (52:17.638)
Interesting. I have one. Chloe, do you have one first?

Chloé (52:22.515)
I do, but please go first.

Amy (52:25.326)
I'm really fascinated by the evolvement right now of friendship and the fact that we are starting to realize that actually for a lot of people, specifically younger generations that are starting to marry later, not marry at all.

to give more seriousness and credibility and support as to what is the tenants of friendship mean, meaning can you get a mortgage with a friend? Can you plan your retirement with a friend? Therapists for friendship to end friendships in a better way. Like how do you navigate parenthood? There's just so many, it's one of our core...

relationships we have in our lifetime that haven't always been given the credibility and they're actually going to become some of the biggest societal pillars as we start to look at relate the other parts of our relationship you know we've we don't have the same connection to church which was a connection to community so I think friendship as a tenant is really gonna change and actually start to be much more respected like why don't friendships

There's so many layers of... it's just a fascinating topic to me. And even Esther Perel recently did a session, she's a relationship guru extraordinaire, to help a really tricky friendship ending. So that's one I'm really fascinated about.

Moritz (53:53.458)
Mm-hmm.

Moritz (54:00.796)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you so much. And you, Chloé? You have something on your mind?

Chloé (54:06.178)
I mean, just, yeah, I have something on my mind, but I must say that, you know, friendship is such an important topic, especially at different stages of your life. But yeah, that's been another conversation. And for me, I think what really fascinates me at the moment is this whole discussion around longevity.

and all the implications of what it means to live up to 150, 200 years in terms of opportunities, in terms of spaceness on this earth, in terms of, you know, all the things like pleasure and health and...

work and so many questions to unpack, so many questions to address. I've been diving deep into the field of biohacking and all that kind of things over the last two years thanks to a project that I did on

the future of beauty in the US. And since then I've been, you know, like very well, like really like in this field, like fascinated by everything that I read. So, and again, you know, longevity also raises the question of the longevity of a brand, longevity of a team, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it's a fascinating topic. It's not on the verge of becoming mainstream, let's say.

as emergent as it was like a few years ago and now people are starting to take this more seriously you know no one is really laughing when someone tells you I want to live up to 120 years which was the case yeah so my questions for you is how long would you love to live you know up to which age

Moritz (55:51.586)
Yeah, okay. But it's...

Moritz (55:59.294)
This is, this is a, I think we keep that open because there was a fantastic, um, yeah, sum up it's fantastic that also these two trends and topics, friendship and longevity, they get hand in hand. So it's fantastic and are really great for, um, for our next podcast maybe. But, uh, for now, um, yeah.

Amy (56:03.986)
Yeah

Chloé (56:04.286)
We do.

Amy (56:16.422)
Yeah, ooh, look at you!

Chloé (56:16.53)
Absolutely.

Amy (56:22.518)
Thank you.

Moritz (56:24.174)
We keep it like that and I want to thank you so much for being part of this Cutshifts Magazine episode today. And... Thank you. And have a lovely day. I... Thank you. I just stopped the recording now and I-

Amy (56:27.894)
with gratitude.

Chloé (56:29.622)
Yeah, thank you, Amy. Thank you, Moritz, for this conversation.

Amy (56:32.67)
Thank you, Moira. It's a Chloe. It was great.

Likewise.

Chloé (56:38.059)
YouTube!