What we do

Fast-paced social change calls for new approaches in corporate communication. Brands need to adapt, too: "Cultural Branding" is the buzzword of the hour. But what exactly is it all about - is cultural branding more than just hype? In this edition of our podcast the managing directors of Culture Shifts, Moritz Gaudlitz and Enno Schramm, talk about the opportunities and risks for culture brands. We also touch on topics such as Culture Shifts' past, our core values and our approach to communication, corporate culture & branding.

Fore more information please visit cultureshifts.net and follow us on Instagram & LinkedIn.

Chapters

• 0:00 Tempo: 120.0

Transcript

Moritz: We are in Milan today and we're not talking to guests but introducing ourselves instead, Enno Schramm, partner at CultureShifts, and I, Moritz Gaudlitz, founder of Culture Shifts, want to discuss in this podcast episode the spaces and environments Culture Shifts occupies professionally as a communication  . We talk about   we navigate these spaces strategically and how we meet the demands of our clients in the changing world. Also, we clarify why and how Culture Shifts supports sustainable growth for companies. Hi Enno!

Enno: Hello Moritz, nice to be here. 

Moritz: Nice to be together, finally. Amazing. I mean, before we start, let's structure this episode. We wanted to structure it into three parts. In the first part, we'll briefly talk about our founding history and what's special about it. If there's something special about it? 

Enno: Well, I would definitely say there's something special about it, yes. 

Moritz: In the second part, we'll discuss case studies from our clients in different industries and how we created value for them. And in the third part, what are we doing in the third part?

Enno: Yeah, third part, we'll talk about prospects and opportunities that companies and organisations could have with culture shifts offerings. So what do we do for them? What do we offer the world? 

Moritz: Brilliant. So basically, this podcast is an advertising podcast. 

Enno: I would say it's pure advertisement, yes. And that's the nice thing about it, more behind advertisement than others maybe think about it, right? I mean there's a reason why we're in this business in the end. 

Moritz: Let’s start with maybe heritage and purpose of culture shifts. I said... We briefly talk about our funding history. How was Culture Shifts founded and what was the original idea?

Enno: I found it very interesting to see your approach and your idea to merge the cultural realm with the corporate realm. You know, you started the business and you came with me with this idea and this brilliant website actually, and you told me, you know, I want to combine the offerings that culture has in a broader sense with the identity and the purpose of companies. And I think for that time, I think that was now four years ago, help me, five years ago. When was that? 

Moritz: I think it was four years ago when I started the magazine. 

Enno: And I think for that time it was a very new and also exciting idea put forward in a way that sounded to me very well made and sounded very profound. And also with your background in cultural journalism, like coming from this cultural background, having knowledge, having gained knowledge in the corporate realm as well, and having worked there now for many years, I think this combination really made sense to me then.

Moritz: And then we switched into a consultancy. Like coming from the magazine, covering different cultural approaches, focusing on interviews, exchange with creatives all over the world, working in museums, working for companies, activating culture in their companies or institutions. We switched. So like there's a thing that basically culture is not just for the cultural industries, you can do even more with it. 

Enno: Yes, but would you say it's actually a real switch or is it something companies already have in them and that you wanted to just activate and enrich and make purposefully useful for them? Because culture, as I understood when talking to you, was something you already saw and the company being there and that needed more attention than companies usually used for it, right? 

Moritz: Yeah, exactly. I mean culture is from I think our perspective and our point of view also and our understanding something that makes and defines a body of institution or company. And I think that you have these possibilities to, on the one side, activate the inner culture by finding the right people that work for the company, by having the vision that the company or an institution has, and having a value and creating a value for the company and the business itself, but also for clients or consumers or people around themselves. And on the other hand you have culture as a tool, that you can implement into your company as, let's say, working with artists, working with musicians, commissioning films or doing collaborations with your brand. So you have these two sides of culture and I would say that we started focusing more on the external part, like what do artists do, what do media people do, what is possible in terms of bringing companies and artists together and from there we were focusing a bit more on the internal side. 

Enno: That’s totally true. What did you find more interesting at first, like the company side or the cultural creative artistic side? The cultural side on the other hand. Was it like, oh how would you value or balance these two worlds in your understanding? 

Moritz: I think that in general companies nowadays, and you see it every day, are engaging a lot with youth culture, with subcultures and with cultures such as music, art and film in general, to promote them on the one hand, like philantrophism, but on the other hand, obviously also to enrich their brands and products. Like how can I enrich my brand? How can I make my brand more interesting? Yeah, I get a nice young artist, I get someone who is in the scene to attract maybe new peer groups, new clients, new people and enrich my product that probably is just like a boring product and make it a bit more exciting. So I culturally brand it. But I think for this action, a company needs to be very aware of how strong art can be and how strong the language of art and culture is. So I think before engaging with external culture, you need to define your values. Like what is my value? What is my company culture? And as soon as I set that within my employees, within the core, maybe with a code of conduct and something like that, then I'm able to connect the dots maybe also to the external culture world. What do you think? 

Enno: Totally. I also think so. believe that the corporate world and the cultural world they need to merge in order to really survive in a sense that people believe that their offerings have a value, that there's substance behind. Now I see too many companies shouting about products or services that don't really make sense in this world of accelerated of course culture of accelerated time, of consumerism, of people trying to find their purpose in life, trying to make sense of all this possibilities that people have today and I would say that the more culturally aware a company becomes the more maybe also transparent or the more open it becomes to what trends and evolutions are taking place in society and culture, the more probable it is that it can survive. I think there's a really harsh competition going on for companies to stay relevant right now. And I think we are in the right place to ensure this relevance and to elevate their core values, their strategies and to really make them firm enough to have a strong vision statement and strong core values. 

Moritz: So what you're talking about is basically that keyword of cultural branding. We've been hearing it a lot. A lot of agencies are using it right now for the activation of culture with brands. But we are talking really about a brand must become a cultural brand in terms of the core values. Because without it, it won't survive.

Enno: Yes. And values have to be incorporated within the people's mindset, within their beliefs, you know, and this is a very sensitive area because there's nothing just tell them, oh these are our values. Now please realise what we told you. This needs to be something culturally implemented within their own self-understanding, their perception of the world, their perception of the values and the goals of the company. And this is a very sensitive area to work in where you need sensitivity yourself and a strong knowledge of strategic tools that one can use in order to strengthen corporate values, the corporate culture, peoples values, peoples convictions, right? And I have a few ideas. I think have the right tools and the right mindset to actually accompany or make sense of that process and to guide companies into a new age of cultural awareness. 

Moritz: That’s a good connecting dot to maybe the next part of the conversation, our professional agenda and also the projects, because you say you have a guideline, you have some ideas for companies, for brands, for institutions to guarantee how to strengthen that values or to create the culture in the brand? How do we work at culture shifts in view of the challenges faced by companies today? What are the core problems of companies and institutions today and what could be the solutions? And then maybe we can also give some insights in how we had solutions already with clients and projects we worked on. 

Enno: Yes, I think one thing which is very interesting, especially for people who are not really into branding or communication and all this, that you need to be brutally honest about your services and your offerings. If there's a mismatch between how you communicate and what you yourself are as a company in terms of values and in terms of perception and in terms of your own agenda and the product you offer, then you have a hard time being successful. And I think there is a very high sometimes difference between what companies shout out to the world and what they can really actually sustain in terms of what they are and bring to the table, you know. And I think navigating these differences and navigating these mismatches and trying to make sense of them is something we've been really successful at in the last years. To really sensitize companies for what they should communicate and why, what they can become, and then to show them what their communication should look and feel like. 

Moritz: Can you give me an example of maybe like a mismatch or like a company see nowadays and they're really not communicating what they stand for. 

Enno: Like I know one of our customers for example, you know that it was a big company in the real estate business and what we saw I think from the beginning is that they thought about quantity and that they thought about technology first, like construction technology and technological assets. But I think we made clear to them that the first effort should be to try to find to develop a voice in a wider cultural and societal sense for them and make sense of the pressing problems that they encounter like climate change, like resource scarcity and all these problems that have to be tackled right now in order to really define yourself as progressive and aware. So we sort of shifted in a way not only their communication but at the same time sensitized the management for actually this shift in self understanding and awareness. So make them more aware of a broader cultural and societal scope and really tackle these problems instead of focusing too much on technology and like the boring things that they should be good at anyway, you know? That does not mean we don't tell the public, hey we're really good at technology, but we need to say more today in order to be really successful in the long run. 

Moritz: That’s a really good point, but do you think from a consumer's point of view this is also needed? I mean if I look myself as a consumer and maybe I'm not the average consumer because I work in communications and I work in branding and in that field, so I look at everything very critical, but let's take an average consumer. Do you think they are interested in the value of a company or do they just I don't know consume and want at the end have a nice product. 

Enno: Yes I really think that there's a big shift and the perception of customers today in our today's world because they're getting more and more aware that a brand and the company needs to be real about what it is offering, needs to be real about its commitment. You know there's a high sensitivity for fakeness and a high sensitivity for you know communication that's just blah blah and oh we're so sustainable and so on. But I think this growing awareness needs to be tackled by companies and there needs to be more than just an idea about what to create as a product, there needs to be an idea about what to really bring to the table for society. I mean what are your ideas about this moment of value creation for customers, what should this look like in a communication sense and also cultural value sense talking about corporate culture?

Moritz: I think that companies and Institutions are facing a lot of challenges right now. I think there's not just the branding problem or like the challenge of how do I brand my brand culturally? How do I become an attractive brand that faces the problems and challenges and shifts that are happening in the world such as? sustainability shift in generation, needs, etc. I think there's also the problem, how do I get new employees? How am I also attractive for the people that might come working with me? The people that are interested in collaborating with me? So in the team with employees, you know, like all that is also part of it. So a company or an institution right now is not just facing the challenges of how to maybe get the products to their clients. it's also how to get the clients to their product and how to get also the employees to their company and Create a network and create a sustainable valuable brand image. How do you guarantee that? 

Enno: I think this can be only guaranteed by a shared knowledge about the core elements of strategy and vision and the core conviction of what a company is there for. Like not only knowing the oh so fancy why we're here, but also knowing what is the actual benefit it can bring to the outer world, to the people. And without this knowledge I think there's not much sense in communicating because then only bullshit communication can arise. And this is what we see so much. There's so much blah blah. so much stuff everyone knows it's just for the advertisement sake itself. But I think the more aware a company is about its real agenda and its actual impact it can have on even broader fields that is aware of in the first place, the better. And also expanding the idea of a customer. And a customer can be your next employee in one month. A customer can become your own advocate. A customer can become your own advertiser if he or she is so convinced of your product or service that she or he spreads the word, right. this globalisation is similar to what you actually thought about when founding culture shifts, I think this globalisation is similar to what you actually thought about when founding culture shifts.The globalisation of the idea of culture and make it large and sustainable enough to embrace the idea of corporate worlds and to make the best fit between them. And I think this fit is what we navigate in the end in our work strategically, right? 

Moritz: Yeah, I guess so. And then it's also about what are the tools or how do we approach it? I mean, there's so much going on and we are also talking about so much different angles of corporate culture, of brand identity, of problems and also the shifts that are happening. Maybe let's focus on the shifts. What did we do or what would you say is important right now for companies to focus on in terms of topics, in terms of foresight and ideas? 

Enno: I think that’s a very interesting question, there’s this one saying from these trend research that with any trend or forecast, the opposite is also always true. But we of course see some major shifts that are happening. We see a general shift in the ideas and convictions of younger people, how they want to work, why they want to work, what power relationships they want to engage with when working in a firm, what they're able to bear and what they're able to tolerate. We see a higher awareness for ecological questions. for the downsides of late capitalism, of consumerism. We see a much more refined view for gender, for race, for questions of identity. We see all of this emerging and it makes work more and more interesting. I think you'll probably think the same way. What is it in your eyes that is shifting?

Moritz: A. I think the same because we wouldn't be business partners if we wouldn't think the same. I mean not the same, sometimes we obviously disagree. What is also very important for developments in any kind of matter. I think what we do or what I sometimes see myself as a communications consultant and specialist, I see myself like a kind of a seismograph, kind of a filter on what is happening around a company structure, around a cultural bubble, a smaller or bigger one, in a city, in a country or in a continent, and I try to see what is the shifts, what is the movements happening and how do they influence the body of a company, of a team, of a brand, of a product etc. And try to do a guide map, try to create a guide map what is important, what needs to be activated, what needs to be done, what needs to change. And out of that there's then the analysis phase. We try to think about what does the company really need to do to go in the direction that we set or we agreed on with the CXO’s, the HR departments, with the branding departments. And then after that, we try to implement different communication methods.

Enno: Yes, do you think about any interesting examples yourself right now? Because I have one in my mind where this thing in a certain way actually happened with the company we advised. 

Moritz: Yeah, I have too many probably in my head, but help me out. 

Enno: Well, this is because this one is like we worked for an Austrian warehouse brand for sustainable products and we realized that their challenge is actually to adapt themselves to a younger target group, to a younger audience that's more aware of progressive values than they were actually. So they were still in this language of, you know, we need to be traditional, we need to like root ourselves in the generic discourse that usual sustainable brands have. But we managed to show them a way to actually broaden their scope and to make them actually more aware about the younger target group that should also be attracted to their products, who of course also care about roots and heritage and so on, but who need more in order to really feel and to engage with the product. More offerings and more time oriented, more progressive values. And I think the publishing work we did for them shows that quite nicely that we found a new tonality, a new language also in collaboration with our text office PIUS to make this more contemporary in the end. And I think this shift in helping brands become more contemporary and more aware is one that culture shift is actually, I think, really good at. 

Moritz: So basically when companies realize that their brand plus employer brand no longer corresponds to the times and when the external representation no longer aligns with the internal. So trying to set an internal basis and an internal culture. And only if this is set and works, you can communicate it externally. 

Enno: Yeah, and I think like for external people now for listeners like how do we do this would be one question. How do we work with corporate culture? What are our methods or strategies there? Maybe you can just elaborate on them because I think this is a really interesting tool and strategic set we develop there over time. 

Moritz: Yeah, I think as our backgrounds in our teams, also with the consultants and creatives and strategists we collaborate with on projects, is that our cultural backgrounds help us here, so that we have here different points of views, different methods, strategies, design thinking, Scrum, different methods that we use to analyze, and then I really dive in analyzing the different fields, the different topics, what I just said. Then we become the storytellers and try to activate the stories that maybe haven't been told yet, that maybe the person, the HR department, the CXO didn't see yet. So we try to make visible what is not visible yet for our stakeholders. And then as soon as it's visible, we need to find out does it fit? Does this way of storytelling fit the brand values? I think what we want to do is take and extract the identities, the values, and create a major storytelling that is basically made of all the different positions. 

Enno: Yes, and also I think at the same time when we expand the idea of changing a business or transforming a business, I think the communication aspect still is very crucial and also very substantially changing maybe even the attitudes of people. I mean, I think people sometimes underestimate how much communicating a communications agency does itself. Now, before we start to do a project or to create storytelling and so on, I think especially what we do, we engage with the people a lot, right? We talk to them, we communicate, we analyze, we try to make sense of what they're saying. And I think what we are quite good at is really at first being seismographs for the spirit and the values and the core of the company and then show to them and explicitly tell them a narrative or by storytelling, by aesthetics, by visual artifacts, what they can become. And I think in this moment communication is in a sense transforming a business and in the best case maybe not always and of course there's stuff that doesn't work here sometimes as well as we hope for. But in the best case, this also transforms the business itself. I think this is a power of good communication that should not be underestimated, right? Like the power of actually pushing a company into a new field, into a new market maybe, but also onto a new turnaround where I can create value better, more sustainable, and more, let's say, culturally aware than before. 

Moritz: Totally agree, but not everyone is interested in this. We aim for, hey guys, outside everyone needs it. Like you cannot survive if you're not becoming a cultural brand, if you're not starting to be aware of what is happening apart from just selling your products or your services. This is for sure, that's also our agenda, our offering, that's we want to really implement societal economical issues. But on the other hand, we don't want to be too complicated for our clients. 

Enno: That’s true and that's the art of finding the common language, the common denominator, the point where things start to be interesting and where we can actually make people understand why this should be interesting to them. And what you just said made me think about this one difficulty or this one misperception of a cultural brand. We are monitoring the market of course of communications consultancies, of other strategic consultancies. And there's a lot of buzz and fuzz around this idea of cultural branding. But there's a big difference between putting culture as a label onto your communication, onto your brand, or actually understanding how culture can genuinely strengthen your own values inside a company, your own self-understanding, and the way you create value.

Moritz: That’s exactly what I said in the beginning of our conversation. That's where it started from. Yes. Adding culture to something. But now we see it doesn't work well if a brand is not culturally by itself, because then I think a customer or a client realises it. If you see collaborations happening outside and sometimes you see brand X is collaborating with artists Y, this company A is doing a project with artists or creative B, it's kind of a sellout already. Like, you know, like all these X collaborations that are happening. Collaborating nowadays is key. It's crucial, also we do it, but it needs to fit. Because if it doesn't fit, it's not authentic. 

Enno: And people will notice. Exactly. Yes. Talking about things that don't work, we talked about these elements of what distinguishes success and failure in consulting. But could you give us more ideas about this? Like what hasn't workedWwell? I just tried to remember because we put down this question. What or when is this kind of consultancy not going to work? 

Moritz: I think if someone just wants to sell something... I mean, we all want to sell something. What we do right now in this podcast is selling ideas, in a good way, hopefully. But I think if you have a product or you run a brand or you starting a new brand and you approach us what happened many times and you just want to say, Hey, how can I communicate to sell more? Can you run me an Instagram channel? Can you start a storytelling about my brand that I become more visible? I think it's totally important to become visible, to be visible as a brand, as a company from the product side but also from the employer branding side. Hey, I want to be seen. I want people to look at me. I want to sell a product. I want to hire people. Totally understand it. But I think what doesn't work for us is to start after a cultural agenda is set. So we start with a strategy, creating, trying to find out what is the core, what are the values, and if it's just a workshop we try to find out, hey company, hey CEO, what are your values? Where are you standing? What do you wanna communicate? And then as soon as it's set, what is going to be communicated, we can communicate it and we develop content, a podcast, a blog, a storytelling strategy, a campaign, also with artists and creatives. But I think what does not work is communicating and storytelling without setting the agenda before. 

Enno: Totally. And there's one more thing that comes in my mind and maybe we can also talk briefly because lately we have discovered CEOs who think that they can automate communication via artificial intelligence or via large scaling bombardments of channels, whatever. And what is really crucial, what we really saw is that quality is lacking in most of these cases and that they don't offer and own the right tools and the right strategies to produce value in this mass content scale. So I think we are probably in the wrong place when people believe we are the ones to really spread out millions of ads in one month because this is just the way we believe a brand should communicate. I think what works with us is high quality content and the right channel at the right place delivered to the right people because the right people know and they're highly aware of what content fits into the place or which content doesn't. 

Moritz: Exactly, but then we are talking about the ROI, the return on investment, what are the KPIs? So cultural communication, cultural branding, how do you measure it? What are the KPIs, the ROIs for a company when investing in a cultural brand?

Enno: I think this is probably one of the most interesting questions for Culture Shifts. Because what we realized is that the growth process that we can initiate pays off in not only new employees that want to work for you, a better insight, culture, a better understanding of the core values, but also you can measure it via the quality and the amount. I know that measurement comes later in our stage. You know, we are not a consultancy that pushes out 10.000 ads in the first month we work with someone and measure how much you know leads and whatever return we got from that but in the process of really consulting a firm or a company and let this be three or five months, six months, we can really see how not only employees have more benefits working for people they're better at recruiting better at talent scouting because the quality of the communication is substantially increasing but also that they realize that their voice is spreading into areas that are more beneficial and interesting for them. That our voice that we create for them finds the right channels and via tonality, via content, via its making is affecting people's minds in areas that are beneficial for the company. Especially people who are culturally aware and who have progressive values. And this is probably also why we work with companies who have a sense for shifting times and shifting perceptions and shifting needs in a society, right?

Moritz: And there are lots of shifts that we observe. 

Enno: Exactly. We talked about them, a few of them. 

Moritz: We talked about what challenges companies are currently facing. We talked about shifts that we observe, such as the megatrends we also communicate on our website, on the magazine. Let's talk about, maybe in the last chapter of this conversation, about how do we approach it. We talked a lot now about, not abstract, but about ideas, visions, how we see consulting and cultural branding. But let's be pragmatic. If a client has a need, let's say the need is really visibility and the idea of, hey, I want to become a cultural brand! How do we approach it? 

Enno: I think we have quite some valid portfolio in our offerings that can really support this agenda. At first we have the network to do so, we have the specialists in any field, so if there's a 3D rendering, if there's a large language model that needs to be applied, we can either do it ourselves or others do it. If there's graphic design, whatever it may be, so we have these people, but also our own methods and toolsets, like our forward shift workshop, like our approach to AI and communication, our way of promote methods and tools in meetings to make people more refined and to clarify views, perceptions, identities. I think once this really starts to work, people realise that their own efforts are making a difference and that they can make a difference in the world. So I'm talking about workshops, I'm talking about conceptual guidance, I'm talking about actual CEO coachings, I'm talking about analysis, qualitative analysis that has been done with people inside a company. And I'm of course talking about all the professional expertise that our networks can offer to a company. 

Moritz: Clients that approach us are asking us in what field are you working? What are your clients like? Are you more in the creative sector? Are you in banking? Are you in finance? Are you in arts? And I think this is some of the things where we say: how important for us as a communication consultancy for brand building, cultural branding and communication in times of change, how important is it to focus on an industry? 

Enno: Maybe this is a nice moment to get back to our roots, because what we see right now as a broader shift in society and also in communications is that the aesthetics, the tonality and also the content is getting more and more refined. Now, we both have a background in art and culture and in journalism or in text work or even in creative work, artistic work. I think the shift that we're seeing how companies embrace these new tonalities, the new narratives, the new aesthetics really helps us with our own agenda because we talk to firms who have acknowledged the shift in society towards a more refined, more aware and more culturally as well aware identity and core values. So I think it's more a question of mindset and value and agenda than industry. And I think our list of clients quite clearly shows this picture, that we've worked with companies who really embrace new ideas. So what is much more relevant is the mindset than the industry. If there's a company with a management and CEOs who know that today you need culture, you need values, you need identity and you need a strong narrative, besides your industry, you know, then we're in the right place. 

Moritz: Yes, absolutely. And I would go a bit further and also would like to ask you about our approach of communication. Because communication is such a big word, you know, like we're communication consultants, we're strategic communication consultancy. But communication can be an Instagram post, but communication can also be a letter from a CEO to an NGO or from an employee to a customer. How do we see communication as our core value and core business? And let's say also core tool that we have.

Enno: As far as I can reflect upon that, I would say that our shared understanding of communication is that it's a very powerful, magical, complex, touching at its best, and at the same time, mind-transforming medium and idea that is more and more relevant in our times of rapid change and societal change, and also the high amount of new ideas that emerge right now. So if there’s one approach or one idea Culture Shifts has about communication is that it should be profound, high quality, sensitive to its environment, sensitive about changes and needs in society and target groups, and that needs to speak in a tone that is really aware of the present. 

Moritz: And let's think about a trend. Like let's think about a trend that is there right now and that companies want to follow and want to engage with. I mean, right now it's culture, obviously. A company wants to become a cultural brand or wants to engage with culture. But if you would give an advice for free now to companies, what could be maybe an approach or also an idea or a tool that they can use to simply activate culture in their companies? Is it like, Hey, find a nice artist and get website designed by them?

Enno: I think the magic is in the question itself. Imagine a CEO asking this question very straightforwardly to its own employees. Like, what can I do for you? What can I do for you that you are feeling better with at work, that you have a clearer sense about your own purpose, about the identity, and really becoming open and actually sharing this question with your employees, also metaphorically, by all the actions that are involved for that, you know, asking questions to the management, to your employees at any level and being transparent. I think very many CEOs would never actually dare to ask this question themselves, but probably it's one of the most powerful questions you can ask your own company. What do you need from me? What can I do for you now culturally in order to elevate what we can do here in this firm?

Moritz: I see sometimes ourselves as the ones that are activating them to ask exactly that question.

Enno:  Exactly. Ask better questions, be more refined in the way you approach your own corporate culture, be more aware of how your own actions influence corporate culture. I mean, I think about loads of CEOs we advise that really transformed also their own LinkedIn or Instagram accounts only because we told them, hey, you need to be probably more aware of what this speaks of when you post this or that. So it begins of course with coaching CEOs, but also realizing that the impact needs to be done on all levels of an organization. We are not there to really work with those people, but we can set the tone, we can set the main frame, the actual framework for this change. But in the end it's people who have to follow the route. 

Moritz: Yeah, that's right. And I think the people are so important also for us, or that people are so important for us, you see also in our magazine, because we run Culture Shifts Magazine as a think tank, as a creative platform to talk to people that are activated by culture or activate culture. So in this year we focus on spaces. That's why we talk today also about our culture shift spaces, the spaces that we work on and in. 

Enno: Yes, I think it's a very precise and at the same time timeless offering which is becoming more and more relevant in the times we live in actually. And the more awareness we can share now also with this podcast for all these questions that arise when doing culturally aware communication and when actually merging cultural values, cultural conceptions of self, of the world, of society with corporate values, then I think we can make a difference and I think also that companies can make a big difference in the future and even now. 

Moritz: Exactly. To all our listeners out there, thanks for joining us for this episode today with like Enno and me in Milan and I think if there are any questions or feedback or ideas also or if you want to get in touch and just talk about all these shifts maybe we don't see shifts that you see just drop us an email info at culture shifts dot net or visit our website culture shifts dot net or social media linkedin and Instagram and we are very happy to get in touch.

Enno: very happy about this talk Moritz.

Moritz. Thank you Enno, let's keep going.