Talking AI, Art & Technology with Hans Ulrich Obrist

Art, technology and artificial intelligence working together! For more than a decade at the Serpentine Galleries in London. Join us for a conversation with Hans Ulrich Obrist, the Artistic Director of the Serpentine Galleries in London, curator, writer and sought-after speaker at academic and art institutions worldwide. With a portfolio that includes hundreds of curated exhibitions and countless interviews, Hans Ulrich is arguably the driving force in shaping the contemporary art landscape.

In our conversation, we delve into the Serpentine Galleries' innovative approach to embracing technology and AI, and explore how art intersects with these emerging fields. We also explore the symbiotic relationship between artists and the corporate world, discussing the crucial role that creatives play in shaping the vision of businesses and boards. Hans Ulrich emphasises the importance of using technology responsibly and creating new alliances between art institutions, universities, and other sectors. He also talks about the role of artists in subverting the intended use of technology and creating space and agency for people. He highlights the need for togetherness and interdisciplinary collaboration in addressing the challenges of the 21st century. 

Join us as we embark on a journey of exploration and imagination with Hans Ulrich Obrist, unravelling the opportunities and challenges that connect art, technology and the future.

Fore more information please visit cultureshifts.net and follow us on Instagram & LinkedIn.

Transcript

Hans Ulrich Obrist (00:02.478)
After 10 years of preparation, we can say now 2024 is the year of AI at the Serpentine. But it's always important when we use technology is to think about how we can use it to give people space and agency. Also, we can, as an art institution, bring many people at the table.

Moritz Gaudlitz (00:24.046)
Hello, I'm happy to introduce our third season, The New Creativity. This year in our Culture Shifts Magazine podcast, we will be talking to thought leaders, visionaries and experts to share their insights on redefining creativity in our ever -evolving world. Culture Shifts Magazine provides insights into relevant areas of culture, society and business. In our podcasts, we talk to people from different sectors who are enabling change through new strategies, visions and communication concepts. I'm Moritz Gaudlitz, founder of Couchershifts and your host.

Welcome to another episode of the Culture Shifts Magazine podcast. Today I'm very pleased to have Hans Ulrich Obrist as my guest. Hans Ulrich Obrist is the artistic director of the Serpentine Galleries in London, a curator and writer. He has lectured internationally and academic and art institutions and is a contributing editor to several magazines and publications. Hans Ulrich has curated hundreds of exhibitions around the world and conducted countless interviews. His latest book, Remember to Dream: 100 Artists, 100 Notes was published in October 2023. Hello, Hans Ulrich. Thank you for joining us. How are you? 

Hi, how are you? I'm well, yeah, it's good to see you. I could talk to you about anything and about more than your schedule and this format allow. So I will try to focus on one specific topic, the future of artistic work in the age of AI and machine learning. We heard the keywords, remember to dream. Do you remember your first encounter with AI, Hans Ulrich? Was it in a dream or in reality?

No, I think, you know, that it's quite early. I was basically in the nineties, friends with Heinz von Förster. 

Moritz Gaudlitz (02:09.582)
There were waves, you know, there were always moments where people kind of were into AI and then there was an AI winter and then there was again a focus on AI. And Heinz von Fauster was of course a legendary Austrian -American scientist who kind of brought together physics and philosophy. And he's one of the pioneers really of second -order cybernetics. He was at the Biological Computer Laboratory, Illinois. He was really a polymath who wrote hundreds of papers that went von Förster computer science to artificial intelligence.

to epistemology. I was born in 1911 and passed away in 2002. It was very old. And as part of my, you know, conversation series where I spoke to scientists like Trigoshin, where I, or Isabel Stangos, as a philosopher, I would also speak to a lot of different poets and architects and people von Förster all disciplines. And very often it's about talking to pioneers, talking to people whose eyes saw a century of experience and also contributed to major invention. And so as part of this series, I went to see him in Vienna. We also had a lecture exchange. He told me about his work on cognition and how he brings together neurophysiology, mathematics, philosophy, and of course, how cybernetics connected to AI and how he connected to the pioneers of cybernetics to Norbert Wiener, to John von Neumann. And yeah, how basically he participated in the Macy conferences, which is kind of amazing, because obviously,

Susan Dreiser worked at the Macy conferences, where these extraordinarily important pioneering conferences, which brought together scholars von Förster lots of different disciplines. They went on von Förster 41 to 1960. And, you know, it addressed all kinds of topics, aging, which are kind of a big topic today, consciousness, but also it focused on cybernetics. So, so von Förster spoke there. So I think it's in the conversation with Hans von Förster that I for the first time,

encounter the questions of AI. Okay, thank you so much. And how do you see technologies like AI machine learning reshaping the creative processes for you as a curator in your work at Serpentine Galleries and also in relationship with artists? Yes, Serpentine technology is really important. I was always aware that Billy Cluver in the 1960s together with Robert Wittman, who just passed away,

Moritz Gaudlitz (04:29.198)
performance pioneer, they did experiments in art and technology. So they worked very closely with the then leading tech company Bell Laboratories and basically brought artists in residence with engineers. Liliya Schwarz was one of them. She was one of the artists who spent most time, years really, in a lab at Bell Laboratories and invented early computer art through that. And I was always thinking, if Billy Cleaver did with Robert Whitman, eat experiments in art and technology, we should maybe do

We should do new experiments for art and technology for our time. And then I remember I was 12 years ago giving a TED talk. There was a TEDx conference in Marrakesh. It was basically David Chipperfield and I spoke just after he chatted about art and architecture and curation. And after that conference, there was a dinner. And late in the evening, John Nash approached me. He was an artist and tech entrepreneur von Förster London. He just doesn't understand why museums are not focusing on technology. Why?

They have a website and that's it. And there is all these things like blockchain was very new then and Ethereum had just started. And he said that there is a group in London with Ben Vickers and him and Ed von Yeles and Dean Kisick who always meet and why is there no connection to museums? And I'm always curious and open. So I said, you know, let's meet. And it's during this meeting that I decided that we absolutely need to hire Ben Vickers and that the institution should have a digital curator. But then soon after we realized.

that it needs more than a digital curator, that the institution actually needs a CTO. You know, why does every company have a chief technology officer and the museum not? And so Ben, little by little, went von Förster digital curator to CTO, and he formed the whole department. And that's really, you know, the beginning of art and tech. And we have now a department of five curators. That's really, really important because the art and technology department brings together convening, commissioning, creative R &D.

to support the development of an art and technology ecosystem with a public mission. So it's not only about what the Serpentine can do with tech, but it's also how we can actually be useful for the entire ecosystem. You know, how we can do things which are useful for other museums, for artists. And that has been going on for 10 years. Since 2014, you know, we've developed AI projects. So 10 years of AI at the Serpentine, Cecil B. Evans, you know, James Bridal, Jane Asutela, Ian Chang.

Moritz Gaudlitz (06:51.726)
Peter Steyer, they all did prefigurations of AI projects and that basically prepared the ground for the Creative AI Lab, which we are now doing since 2019 with King's College. All of those roads led to the foundation in a way of this Creative AI Lab. And I think what is important when we work with tech is also that it's not only museums working with each other, but that we also create new alliances. Isabel Stengers and Prigoshit once wrote a book.

about the new world's alliance. I really think we need new alliances. So a museum collaborating with a college, with a university, Serpentine and King's College, that's one plus one equals at least 11 because it creates a space for research into AI systems von Förster artistic and cultural perspectives and interests and really generates a foundation for thought leadership on this topic, which is what we want to do. And so after 10 years of preparation, we can say now 2024,

is the year of AI at the Serpentine. We began with the exhibition of Refik Anadol. You know, we always think that the Serpentine museum has to be a lab, you know, there should be no end to experimentation. We have a building, the North Carolina is a building by the late Zaha Hadid, who is also together with Julia P. Jones at the origin of our Serpentine pavilion, where every year we build a new pavilion. And that began with Zaha Hadid in 2000, but Zaha also deeply implemented in the institution.

the roots for this endless experimentation. She once told me there should be no end to experimentation. And that's exactly what we do in the Serpentine Lab, you know, so with Holly Herndon and Matt Ryhers, two amazing artists, pioneers who worked with AI for many, many years, they're going to create the collective creation of new vocal datasets of governance frameworks and vocal models. So the show positions the process of data collection and model training as, you know, new forms of art making, and it's also going to be presented at

had later this year. And at the same time, you know, there's Holly's show, Matt's show, Refix's show, but there is also the launch, we just launched it actually, all the listeners to your podcast can download it. It's free von Förster our website, the Future Art Ecosystem, F .A .R .E., because we have published four reports. And that's the whole idea is to make, you know,

Moritz Gaudlitz (09:07.662)
this whole research accessible also for other institutions and for artists. And this Future Art Ecosystem 4 is about art and public AI. It's a briefing that breaks down the implications of AI for the cultural sector, for the wider sector, and offers all of us, hopefully, possibilities to claim greater agency within AI -driven economies. It is, of course, about the agency, you know, the agency of art institutions, the agency of artists. Thank you so much, Hans Ulrich.

You were talking about the AI in your museum and at the Serpentine galleries. How do you personally integrate AI in your creative daily processes? You said 2024 is the year of the AI at Serpentine. Is it also the year of AI for yourself? I'm reading a lot. You know, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm reading a lot. I do a lot of interviews.

related to AI. And I definitely try to experiment also with writing, with research. Yeah, definitely. It's also true for my life, for my research. But I think when we do these years where we focus, it's not bandwagoning that all of a sudden we say, okay, it's a year of AI. Because as I explained, it's been going on for 10 years. At the Serpentine, we've done for 10 years artist projects with AI. I think this year is a kind of a culmination point because we do so many exhibitions, particularly the North Gallery.

is really dedicated to art and tech this year, that it's a kind of a trans -generational endeavor. And then of course, you know, also, in the last couple of years, we also focused a lot on video games. I think it's interesting that last year for the first time, more than 3 billion people played video games in the world. That's, of course, an incredible number. It shows that was what used to be a pastime activity for a few people has become.

In a way, one of the leading mediums of our time. If you think about what the novel was to the 19th century, what film was to the 20th century, video games could very well become this for our time. And it's also interesting, we curated an exhibition also for Julius Toschek, which then went to the Pompidou. It went von Förster Dusseldorf to the Pompidou in Metz, which was kind of an attempt at the survey show on artists having worked with video games. So it's in a way, you know, also...

Moritz Gaudlitz (11:20.014)
about working in a very interdisciplinary way and bringing the world of technology. And of course with video games, that happens more and more. In video games you have music, you have literature, you have also architecture, you have all these different fields. So in a way maybe video games could potentially become the Gesamtkunstwerk. You've been talking about the program at Servantine Galleries and about AI being in the program for such a long time.

What do you see as the main challenges and at the same time opportunities on this kind of new work on Serpentine galleries and in the arts? Yeah, I think the opportunities and the challenges, you know, of course there is a lot of, you know, fear of AI and I think it's important that we use these technologies in a very responsible way. I mean, as I mentioned, you know, data are ethically sourced, that we also, you know,

building checks and balances to avoid that they get out of control. And I think artists can play a very important role in that. I think it's important that we go back to another model von Förster the sixties, because there is of course the model I mentioned of Billy Clube or Robert Whitman. There is also APG, which was an initiative of Barbara Stavini and John Latham. And they believed in this idea that actually every company, every corporation, every government should have an artist in residence and maybe even an artist on the ball. And I believe that today, you know, when...

Companies far more have to pivot and artists are incredibly good at pivoting. The moment has come where this idea, which in the 60s was an utopia, could actually be realized. And that would be really important because artists would have a seat at the table and we could, in a way, we could listen to artists, you know, also in terms of how these new technologies are going to evolve, are going to be used. And it's of course about the 21st century cultural infrastructure, you know, because I think this is about using advanced technology for the public good, you know.

because we could see with social media, not all of it is for the public good. I mean, with social media, we suddenly realized, as Eddie Pariser said, that there is a filter bubble, that all of a sudden, what actually should have led to a flannery on the internet and opened up our horizons actually suddenly leads to a lock -in situation, where we're locked in to some very limited choices. And actually, all of a sudden,

Moritz Gaudlitz (13:28.718)
are no longer really encountering anything outside that, that filter bubble phenomenon. And I think artists are very focused also on exploding that filter bubble and always thinking how technologies can be actually used for the public good and also how they're holistic, you know, how it's a holistic ecosystem. Lots of these alliances have been born. And we believe in that, you know, believe that it's about growing, you know, about...

It's organically growing about developing discourse and platforms, experiments in new ownership, in new distribution models. What do you see as the main challenges and opportunities this presents? I think also we can, as an art institution, bring many people at the table together, who normally don't talk to each other. We can organize think tanks and conferences. I think that's also really, really important. We don't have this sort of division.

I mean, C .P. Snow lamented that already, the division von Förster the humanities on the one side and then science, technology on the other side. And we need to kind of create bridges. And I always think, I think what is always important when we use technology is to think about how we can use it to give people space and agency, right? And that's something the artist Sandra Perry, with whom we did an exhibition here called Typhoon Coming On, pointed out at the opening of her show.

How can we make sure that these technologies create space and give people agencies? Sandra Perry created again a very incredible immersive environment here with technological means, but also connecting it to history because she connected it to a Turner painting, Slave Ship von Förster 1840, where Turner depicted the drowning of 133 slaves by the captain of this British slave ship to claim compensation. And she revisited.

with new technologies, this painting of Turner and created a site -specific installation. The future can be invented with the past, that we can also connect to art history. That's another thing the museum can do, a sort of a trans -historical dimension where we connect the past, the present, future. And that Sandra Perry's exhibition was one of many exhibitions actually which sort of addressed that. And of course,

Moritz Gaudlitz (15:43.15)
The idea of net neutrality, the idea of collective production and action. Often artists using open source software to edit their work, as Sander does. Open access is important. Thank you so much. Talking about open access, when we go back to maybe the analog world, your recent book with 100 notes, 100 artists, 100 notes, what was the initial idea behind it? Was it some kind also about a counterpart?

to the digital, to the posts or to the social bubbles? Yeah, I mean, the way how my handwriting project was born, it's of course very much about being analog and digital at the same time. And I think the future in that sense will somehow be mixed reality. It's not either or, but it's both and. And I think a lot of our experiences will have an analog or physical component and then we have a digital component. Quite at the beginning of Instagram, it was again probably 12, 13 years ago.

I was in the studio of Ryan Trecartin and he had quite a lot of followers at the beginning of Instagram and downloaded the app on my phone and then posted a message saying, you know, Hans Ulrich joined Instagram. So it was a kind of a peer pressure. And I thought, you know, what I would do with it really needed to have a mission, needed to have a purpose. It couldn't just be a vanity project or whatever, you know, it needed to have a value. An urgency is a big one. A necessity. I need a necessity because I didn't know what to do. And then a few weeks later I was in...

In the apartment of Umberto Eco, the great writer in Milan, the neologist is a very interdisciplinary figure, a scientist, a semiologist, a book collector, a novelist, famous of course to the larger public through the name of The Rose, this best -selling novel. His house looked a little bit like the name of The Rose. There were books everywhere and then there was a room where only he had the key. He opened that little room and in this room there were all these medieval manuscripts which he had collected.

It was almost like being in a monastery. And when I left him after a few hours and we concluded the interview, he said, I'm extremely concerned because handwriting is disappearing. And you know, you are too old, he said, but he said, you're a generation. He told me, you should do something. I'm giving you a task. It's kind of funny because quite often artists would give me tasks already early on. You know, Boetti would say, ask artists about the unrealized project. So, also my doctor would say, go von Förster city to city and ask who is the Louise Baudrillard in this town. You know, in every city you have these amazing women artists who you didn't have to...

Moritz Gaudlitz (18:07.95)
pioneering human art, to get the recognition. So that's the task was my target. And I usually take these tasks very seriously and, you know, do them over many years, if not decades. So then Eco gave me a task, but I was a little bit at a loss because I didn't really know how, couldn't possibly found a calligraphy school. I'm not an expert, so I carry this idea with me. And then all of a sudden something else happened, the third chapter. So you see, it's a kind of a serendipity. I also kept in mind...

What Willem Flusser told me a long time ago when I was a student, I went to interview Willem Flusser, the philosopher, and Flusser said, all these devices are being invented in technology, but we need to always think that how we can use them in a different way than the inventor actually wanted us to use it. It's a sort of a detournement. How can we turn a device and use it in a completely unexpected way to subvert actually,

How can we use a camera in the rather the opposite way? You know, the inventor of the camera wanted us to use it. And so, but then obviously I can't remember what Flusser said in, okay, if I follow Flusser's logic, I should use Instagram in a sort of opposite way than the founders of Instagram. You know, they invented a sharing platform. So how could I use it in a sort of opposite way? So that was maybe the third chapter. So first chapter, Ryan downloading the app, me being at the loss.

Second chapter, Echo telling me I have to do something for handwriting, me being at a loss. Both things are unsolved, carrying them with me in my mind. The third thing, you know, me thinking again, what on earth should I do with Instagram? Then I go back to that Flusser interview. And then the first chapter was in the serendipity where chance came to the help, because obviously chance, I always embraced chance. And I think, you know, it's a controlled way of embracing chance, but we obviously can use chance.

So I was on vacation with my partner, Kouchonga, the artist. Yeah, we both actually wanted to kind of spend some time with Etelatnan and Simon Fatal, who invited us to Brittany, to Bretagne in France over the Christmas holidays. And so we visited our friend Simon, the legendary artist and poet, and we were there for a few days and we went on walks. And the last day we were there, that happens quite often during Christmas time or in winter in Bretagne, it started to rain and rain.

Moritz Gaudlitz (20:27.662)
And we found shelter in a small cafe and had a long conversation. And obviously after several hours of conversation, the inevitable happened. Kuh and Simone and I would go on our phone, you know, and would start to actually with the phone, you know, type and answer a few emails. But of course, Etelat Nan, who was already in her, I would say late eighties then, she didn't have a smartphone. So she took out her little notebook and started to write the poem. And then at the very moment it all came together. Okay.

What do I do with my Instagram? I actually made a photograph and I filmed her handwriting, it's very beautiful. That's like, wow, I'm actually seeing artists every day. So we could replicate this. And then I suddenly thought, oh, echo handwriting. And so that ever since, you know, so in a way it's a longer, longer story, but these different steps led to it. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Maybe you rounded up with the last question because you said that you like chance and...

Also serendipity. Looking ahead, what trends or developments do you anticipate will significantly impact the future of creativity? And how should individuals and organizations prepare? Yeah, I always kind of refuse to answer the future question because I believe in what Martha Rosler says, the artist that the future always flies in under the radar. Particularly as a curator, the last thing I would want to do is to kind of predict the future of art.

But I kind of think what we can talk about is what we need at this moment in time. And I think, you know, in a moment in time where things are more and more separated, I think it's really necessary to bring the worlds together again. I think we need togetherness in every possible way, you know. And what we really need, I think, is a new Black Mountain College. We need, it's kind of something I really want to do in the next couple of years and decades to kind of come up with.

new models of Black Mountain colleges, because I think it's a moment where it's very, very important where we can really only solve the big challenges of the 21st century. Let's think, for example, about the climate emergency if we go beyond the fear of pooling knowledge with specialization brings with itself. I've studied a lot the Black Mountain College model. I've interviewed von Förster Suzanne Weill to Dorothea Rockburn, artists who studied there, who taught there, who spent time there. I think it's an extraordinary model that we can have.

Moritz Gaudlitz (22:48.91)
in a school, you know, art, architecture, and urbanism, and music, and science, you know, together. And I really think that that's what we need, you know, for the 21st century. And I think this idea of bringing disciplines together. And for me, I think Edward Lisson is in a way one of the most meaningful writers for our time. So I think if you want to kind of address the present and think about what we can do in the current moment, because I always think, you know, rather than speculate on the future.

It's important to kind of think about what we can do now. I think Glisser is a really fantastic toolbox because we clearly live in a time where we have the homogenizing forces of globalization fooled by technology at stake more than ever before. And that leads, of course, to the extinction. It leads to the environmental disaster. It leads to the disappearance of languages, the disappearance of cultural phenomena. Handwriting is just one of many. And we, of course, need to resist this homogenized globalization. But Glisser always predicted that it's going to be a counter -reaction where we

We also have new forms of localism, new forms of nationalism, lack of tolerance, total refusal of dialogue, so the exchange with the other, our life can become richer, our life can become more complex. And I think that's really an incredibly important aspect for now, for the world. And I think also, Glissant's sort of several other toolboxes like the Acquipée, like the Right to Opacity, these are all very important toolboxes for...

for now. Yeah, I would say that what you do at Serpentine Galleries is already some kind of a Black Mountain College idea, you know, like bringing together different artists and sectors and interdisciplinary ideas and visions. We're trying every day, yes. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Hans Ulrich Obrist, for joining. It's a pleasure. Thanks for your great questions and see you soon, I hope.

Moritz Gaudlitz (24:45.486)
Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and follow us on Instagram, LinkedIn or visit our website, cultureshifts .net.